isachandra (isachandra) wrote,
isachandra
isachandra

No Death, No Dinner



I bit the "ethical omnivorism" bullet. As you probably have noticed, I tend not to talk politics, instead opting to make yummy vegan food and force feed it to people. But jewcy.com asked me to debate a yoga guy about ethical meat eating and I said yes. What followed was a few days long email debate, which you can read here. Only the first 2 emails are there so far, the rest will be up this week. Jewcy introduced me as a utilitarian, which I'm not really, but whatever.
Subscribe
  • Post a new comment

    Error

    Comments allowed for friends only

    Anonymous comments are disabled in this journal

    default userpic
  • 46 comments
Previous
← Ctrl ← Alt
Next
Ctrl → Alt →
Well, you're clearly 'in the lead' so far :-)
I don't think I've heard much about ethical meat-eating before reading this article. Most omnivores I know don't even try to factor their diet into an ethical framework. I look forward to the rest of the discussion. You appear to be in the lead at this point :)

Deleted comment

why was your friend so insistent on you having that pizza?? as an example if you are Jewish & don't feel right eating pork would she try to make you have a ham sandwich? really now. why are people so dense sometimes?
I admire your bravery and intellectual patience. I really, really do.
And I can see this as a great forum for a (re)spelling-out of the basic principles of ethical veganism...

But, dude was talking rock spirits, garbling Descartes' best one-liners, and triumphing prehistoric animism (while tapping away at his computer keyboard) within the first two minutes. Talk about a lost cause! You deserve a medal for even following through. Some sort of Socratic medal.

These New-Agey types aren't any more new than... New Age. I don't see why a minor rebranding would garner them any resurgence of attention.

I know. Rock spirits.

thedeli

10 years ago

i liked how you talked about flux of pink indians. also, signing it, "love, isa" was a nice touch.
"ethical" meat eating can suck it.
can't wait to see what his reply is.
Ethical meat is pretty much the same as saying ethical pain and suffering. He can't get around that animals feel pain and fear. Maybe they don't think like we do, maybe they had a good life...but to eat meat, something always suffered - even if it was quick.

devilbunnie

10 years ago

greenanimal

10 years ago

curetpillargirl

10 years ago

Oh my goodness. You won before you even had to start typing.
I've only just finished Charles first letter.
But OMG Peter Forking Singer *fan girl glee subsiding*, for the win.
Seriously tho, yes plants are alive, and yes veg*ns kill living cells, but is this man actually willing to arguee that the death of an animal (with neurons and the all that pain sensing jazz) is the same as that of a plant?
Surely not.

I believe this guy is mistaken, its not death we're trying to stop its pain and suffering, which I'm sorry to say my carrots and peas were spared.
It is not animals similiarity to us, that earns them the right to live, its the pain they feel and trama they suffer through an untimely death.
It's the fight they put up, the desire to continue living and to not feel pain.

Yes, plants die but they do not feel.
Their death is painless and unfelt.
The day a carrot notices it's dealth, is the day I will also.

Anonymous

May 14 2007, 23:14:51 UTC 10 years ago

Yes, plants die but they do not feel.
Their death is painless and unfelt.


Herbalists would disagree with you there.

greenanimal

10 years ago

greenanimal

10 years ago

Anonymous

10 years ago

greenanimal

10 years ago

Anonymous

10 years ago

b_a_dxxx

10 years ago

What science is and what it isn't

Anonymous

10 years ago

Having read what's posted so far, it looks like this guy was softballing you for the first go. Now, don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be construed as insulting or anything. Quite the contrary, at least in philosophy (and he claims formal training there) it's considered rude to start a discussion like this with your best shots. If this guy has 5 braincells to rub together (and maybe he doesn't, I don't know him), he's well aware that you've heard all this before and should have some fairly pat responses. If he's a nice, bright and reasonable individual, what he's doing is giving you a chance to help steer the conversation and a chance to return fire. If he's not nice or reasonable (but is bright), he could actually be attempting to herd you into certain answers he knows you will give, so that he can corner you later (hence the advantage for going first). Or, of course, he could be brain-dead. But I just wanted to poke my $.02 there, before everyone starts high-5-ing each other on another non-vegan defeated. Keep your guard up. (of course, this might all be moot, as I take it the discussion's already finished, right?)
Yeah, we've already finished the discussion, the rest of the emails will be up this week. I'm afraid it didn't really get any better.
Whoa, you're response was really awesome! That guy Eisenstein is pretty annoying in his reasoning, props to you for handling him so well :-)

~Nessa
Whether the argument will be won or not doesn't matter at all. I think the best part is that whomever reads it will think too! If people are truly thinking they'll figure it out.
You go girl. Your thoughts and your way of putting them out there rock.

If Peter thinks animals are different than him because they don't have a higher level of thinking, then ask him if someone knocked him out so he was half brain dead but could still feel fear and pain, would he then be ok with someone killing him? I think not. It's not about brain power, it's about suffering, plain and simple. Animals are capable of suffering.
wow, i hope he doesn't really believe that vegans create their own hierarchies by putting animal life before plant life. most intelligent people know better than to bring that up - i wonder if he was just testing you. i do disagree, though, with your statement that people no longer need to kill animals to survive, since there are many people who do still eat meat out of necessity (in areas of the world where vegetables are either too expensive or just unavailable).
Agreed, girl. But he and I don't need to eat meat to survive.

pluvka

10 years ago

Great debate so far, rock spirits are the best. Ethical meat eaters confuse me! Right after my undergrad years I worked in this tiny local organic-health food store in Billings, MT. Every so often they would have a local supplier come in and make samples of their food. Some days it would be asparagus, other days granola...etc. One day it was pork. The woman from the "happy pig" place kept trying to get me to eat the damn pork...and I could not convince her that no matter how "happy" these pigs were while they were living...I wasn't going to eat them now that they were dead, as they surely were no longer happy about the arrangement. Finally I just told her it was bullshit, sadly I was not able to debate the issue as well as you. I'll be looking for pointers in your upcoming installments.
I don't want to be a jerk, but maybe someone like Michael Pollan would be a little more in the realm of the average ethical omnivore's frame of thought, rather than a new agey yoga guy.

And maybe we all would be living a more sustainable existence if we think about things like the distance your food travels to your plate from its origins, or eating seasonally. You can do that as a vegan or as an omnivore, and perhaps with more open-mindedness in either food framework.

Personally, I know plenty of people who make an effort to eat meat that is humanely raised in an environmentally friendly way, and I know plenty of vegetarians who eat processed crap made by big businesses. Ethics aren't black and white, and you won't win over anyone to your side with ridicule (whatever that side may be).
I agree, Michael Pollan would have been awesome. But did you read the debate and do you really think I was trying to win over anyone with ridicule? It doesn't sound like you read it because some of your concerns are addressed therein.

passionsoretro

10 years ago

oboegoddess

10 years ago

isachandra

10 years ago

oboegoddess

10 years ago

Anonymous

10 years ago

oboegoddess

10 years ago

Previous
← Ctrl ← Alt
Next
Ctrl → Alt →