isachandra ([info]isachandra) wrote,
@ 2007-05-14 12:35:00
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No Death, No Dinner


I bit the "ethical omnivorism" bullet. As you probably have noticed, I tend not to talk politics, instead opting to make yummy vegan food and force feed it to people. But jewcy.com asked me to debate a yoga guy about ethical meat eating and I said yes. What followed was a few days long email debate, which you can read here. Only the first 2 emails are there so far, the rest will be up this week. Jewcy introduced me as a utilitarian, which I'm not really, but whatever.

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Round two, seconds out ...
[info]purpletigron
2007-05-14 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Well, you're clearly 'in the lead' so far :-)

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Interesting discussion.
[info]poisonkitty
2007-05-14 05:37 pm UTC (link)
I don't think I've heard much about ethical meat-eating before reading this article. Most omnivores I know don't even try to factor their diet into an ethical framework. I look forward to the rest of the discussion. You appear to be in the lead at this point :)

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[info]frippy
2007-05-14 06:16 pm UTC (link)
I think one good question you raise that doesn't come up is how often regularly self-proclaimed ethical meat-eaters stick to their guns about avoiding factory farmed animals, et cetera.

I remember an exasperated friend who, after realizing she couldn't get me to eat a pizza from Pizza Hut, asked "What about organic dairy? It's from happy cows." (Is this a widely distributed talking point?) After explaining why organic dairy didn't make a difference to me, I added, "I still wouldn't be able to get a pizza with cheese from Pizza Hut, anyhow -- it's not made with organic milk!

Anyhow, good rebuttal -- I passed the links on to some friends. I look forward to seeing the rest of the exchange.

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[info]knitfish
2007-05-14 11:48 pm UTC (link)
why was your friend so insistent on you having that pizza?? as an example if you are Jewish & don't feel right eating pork would she try to make you have a ham sandwich? really now. why are people so dense sometimes?

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[info]thedeli
2007-05-14 06:25 pm UTC (link)
I admire your bravery and intellectual patience. I really, really do.
And I can see this as a great forum for a (re)spelling-out of the basic principles of ethical veganism...

But, dude was talking rock spirits, garbling Descartes' best one-liners, and triumphing prehistoric animism (while tapping away at his computer keyboard) within the first two minutes. Talk about a lost cause! You deserve a medal for even following through. Some sort of Socratic medal.

These New-Agey types aren't any more new than... New Age. I don't see why a minor rebranding would garner them any resurgence of attention.

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[info]isachandra
2007-05-14 07:11 pm UTC (link)
I know. Rock spirits.

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[info]thedeli
2007-05-14 07:47 pm UTC (link)
Usually, for me, rock spirits mark the end of the discussion (and/or a bit of undigested seitan).
Again, you have my highest regards for even proceeding.

I look forward to reading the rest of this T-junction of a debate.

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up the punx?
[info]kilgorexxtrout
2007-05-14 07:13 pm UTC (link)
i liked how you talked about flux of pink indians. also, signing it, "love, isa" was a nice touch.

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[info]devilbunnie
2007-05-14 07:28 pm UTC (link)
"ethical" meat eating can suck it.
can't wait to see what his reply is.

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[info]greenanimal
2007-05-15 01:52 am UTC (link)
Ethical meat is pretty much the same as saying ethical pain and suffering. He can't get around that animals feel pain and fear. Maybe they don't think like we do, maybe they had a good life...but to eat meat, something always suffered - even if it was quick.

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[info]devilbunnie
2007-05-15 02:12 am UTC (link)
it's pretty much just a cop out, imo. a way to make yourself feel better about the industry you are supporting and type of animal suffering it perpetrates- even "free range" meat. how does he know that the animal had a good life before it was killed so he could eat it? i'm pretty sure animals could care less that they were "thanked" for giving up their lives as food!!
preeeettty lame.

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[info]greenanimal
2007-05-15 04:51 am UTC (link)
Or as I like to say, I once asked a cow if he wanted to become a hamburger. He gave me a funny look and kept eating. I took that as a no. He wasn't very excited.

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[info]curetpillargirl
2007-05-17 12:05 am UTC (link)
That's the perfect way to put it. It can suck it, indeed.

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[info]lavajin
2007-05-14 08:01 pm UTC (link)
Oh my goodness. You won before you even had to start typing.

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[info]b_a_dxxx
2007-05-14 08:59 pm UTC (link)
I've only just finished Charles first letter.
But OMG Peter Forking Singer *fan girl glee subsiding*, for the win.
Seriously tho, yes plants are alive, and yes veg*ns kill living cells, but is this man actually willing to arguee that the death of an animal (with neurons and the all that pain sensing jazz) is the same as that of a plant?
Surely not.

I believe this guy is mistaken, its not death we're trying to stop its pain and suffering, which I'm sorry to say my carrots and peas were spared.
It is not animals similiarity to us, that earns them the right to live, its the pain they feel and trama they suffer through an untimely death.
It's the fight they put up, the desire to continue living and to not feel pain.

Yes, plants die but they do not feel.
Their death is painless and unfelt.
The day a carrot notices it's dealth, is the day I will also.

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-14 11:14 pm UTC (link)
Yes, plants die but they do not feel.
Their death is painless and unfelt.

Herbalists would disagree with you there.

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[info]greenanimal
2007-05-15 01:49 am UTC (link)
Herbalists as a group do not believe that pla

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[info]greenanimal
2007-05-15 01:50 am UTC (link)
that worked...plants feel pain.

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-15 02:38 am UTC (link)
I don't agree; I've met quite a few herbalists, and all think the plants have much more understanding than you might believe. Science definitely does not know everything; don't forget that.

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[info]greenanimal
2007-05-15 04:53 am UTC (link)
When you say herbalist do you mean someone who actually went to school or someone who talks to plants and sees the future with them? I was speaking about people who actually study plants.

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-15 04:00 pm UTC (link)
Science doesn't know everything -- that's the whole point. Science proceeds by examining testable questions through peer review. Pseudoscience doesn't. "The Secret Life of Plants" is interesting, but it doesn't prove that plants experience pain or have understanding.

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[info]b_a_dxxx
2007-05-15 06:58 pm UTC (link)
It is true that science does not know everything, and in fact we probably never will. However, I would need more than this knowledge to conclude that plants do in fact feel pain. Based on current knowledge, they simply lack the necessary hardware to accomplish this feat. I would have to have some kind of empirical evidence to argue the contrary.

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What science is and what it isn't
(Anonymous)
2007-05-21 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Science doesn't know everything. Actually, science doesn't know anything! Science is not a body of knowledge.

Science is a means for discovering truths about the world.

If you have a better system for testing the truth or falsity of a given proposition, please let us know about it!

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Not to be a downer, but...
[info]jedimomma
2007-05-14 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Having read what's posted so far, it looks like this guy was softballing you for the first go. Now, don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be construed as insulting or anything. Quite the contrary, at least in philosophy (and he claims formal training there) it's considered rude to start a discussion like this with your best shots. If this guy has 5 braincells to rub together (and maybe he doesn't, I don't know him), he's well aware that you've heard all this before and should have some fairly pat responses. If he's a nice, bright and reasonable individual, what he's doing is giving you a chance to help steer the conversation and a chance to return fire. If he's not nice or reasonable (but is bright), he could actually be attempting to herd you into certain answers he knows you will give, so that he can corner you later (hence the advantage for going first). Or, of course, he could be brain-dead. But I just wanted to poke my $.02 there, before everyone starts high-5-ing each other on another non-vegan defeated. Keep your guard up. (of course, this might all be moot, as I take it the discussion's already finished, right?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Not to be a downer, but...
[info]isachandra
2007-05-14 10:13 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, we've already finished the discussion, the rest of the emails will be up this week. I'm afraid it didn't really get any better.

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[info]knitfish
2007-05-14 11:43 pm UTC (link)
Whoa, you're response was really awesome! That guy Eisenstein is pretty annoying in his reasoning, props to you for handling him so well :-)

~Nessa

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[info]saabisu
2007-05-15 12:47 am UTC (link)
Whether the argument will be won or not doesn't matter at all. I think the best part is that whomever reads it will think too! If people are truly thinking they'll figure it out.

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[info]greenanimal
2007-05-15 01:48 am UTC (link)
You go girl. Your thoughts and your way of putting them out there rock.

If Peter thinks animals are different than him because they don't have a higher level of thinking, then ask him if someone knocked him out so he was half brain dead but could still feel fear and pain, would he then be ok with someone killing him? I think not. It's not about brain power, it's about suffering, plain and simple. Animals are capable of suffering.

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[info]pluvka
2007-05-15 02:46 am UTC (link)
wow, i hope he doesn't really believe that vegans create their own hierarchies by putting animal life before plant life. most intelligent people know better than to bring that up - i wonder if he was just testing you. i do disagree, though, with your statement that people no longer need to kill animals to survive, since there are many people who do still eat meat out of necessity (in areas of the world where vegetables are either too expensive or just unavailable).

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[info]isachandra
2007-05-15 02:56 am UTC (link)
Agreed, girl. But he and I don't need to eat meat to survive.

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[info]pluvka
2007-05-15 02:57 am UTC (link)
that's what i figured you meant - just wanted to toss it out there. otherwise, i am looking forward to reading the rest of the exchange. i just hope i remember to check it again! i am so busy!

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Thank you...
[info]ilsapondicherry
2007-05-15 05:47 am UTC (link)
Great debate so far, rock spirits are the best. Ethical meat eaters confuse me! Right after my undergrad years I worked in this tiny local organic-health food store in Billings, MT. Every so often they would have a local supplier come in and make samples of their food. Some days it would be asparagus, other days granola...etc. One day it was pork. The woman from the "happy pig" place kept trying to get me to eat the damn pork...and I could not convince her that no matter how "happy" these pigs were while they were living...I wasn't going to eat them now that they were dead, as they surely were no longer happy about the arrangement. Finally I just told her it was bullshit, sadly I was not able to debate the issue as well as you. I'll be looking for pointers in your upcoming installments.

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[info]passionsoretro
2007-05-15 02:11 pm UTC (link)
I don't want to be a jerk, but maybe someone like Michael Pollan would be a little more in the realm of the average ethical omnivore's frame of thought, rather than a new agey yoga guy.

And maybe we all would be living a more sustainable existence if we think about things like the distance your food travels to your plate from its origins, or eating seasonally. You can do that as a vegan or as an omnivore, and perhaps with more open-mindedness in either food framework.

Personally, I know plenty of people who make an effort to eat meat that is humanely raised in an environmentally friendly way, and I know plenty of vegetarians who eat processed crap made by big businesses. Ethics aren't black and white, and you won't win over anyone to your side with ridicule (whatever that side may be).

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[info]isachandra
2007-05-15 02:44 pm UTC (link)
I agree, Michael Pollan would have been awesome. But did you read the debate and do you really think I was trying to win over anyone with ridicule? It doesn't sound like you read it because some of your concerns are addressed therein.

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[info]passionsoretro
2007-05-15 02:49 pm UTC (link)
Oh no, I actually was referring to this thread, which I just found a little bit "vegan warrior". I mean, I found him grating, but I thought you were really gracious.

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[info]oboegoddess
2007-05-15 09:07 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you about the ridicule and militance in this thread (though not in the actual debate, which was really refreshing). I'm probably coming from a different place than most people here, as a former vegan and current omnivore, but it always bugs me when people can't be open-minded enough to see that there are multiple ways of living ethically.

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[info]isachandra
2007-05-15 09:36 pm UTC (link)
Please be specific. What do you find to be too militant?

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[info]oboegoddess
2007-05-16 12:06 pm UTC (link)
'"ethical" meat eating can suck it.'

I personally find that statement made on this thread very close minded. It's fine if you think eating meat is wrong and want to debate intelligently (as you have done), but I think statements like that don't help anything. I personally see both sides of the issue and respect and applaud anyone who tries to be more ethical about their life choices. I don't see eating meat in itself to be a problem, and even when I was vegan it was never about the actual killing of animals but rather the horrendous treatment they experience in factory farms while they were living. If "ethical meat eating" addresses that, then I'm all for it for myself. If others want to choose not to eat meat, then I support that as well.

I totally respect that you and others disagree, but it would be nice to get some respect in return. I doubt I'd get a very positive reaction here if I just said "vegans can suck it."

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-18 10:37 pm UTC (link)
Vanessa: I would argue your claim that you were ever vegan.

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[info]oboegoddess
2007-05-19 02:59 am UTC (link)
Who is this and what are you talking about? Vegan means not consuming animal products, which is what I was for about 2 years.

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[info]polyhymnia
2007-05-15 06:20 pm UTC (link)
You should definitely be debating Pollan, he's much more on your level! This guy...plant spirits? Seriously? Just because a plant is as complex as an animal doesn't make it the same.

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-16 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Exactly - if he believes in following his instincts, etc., he would acknowledge that most people can calmly pull a carrot out of the ground, but few could slaughter a calf. Is he killing his own animals, if he's so comfortable with it?

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[info]rayfrenden
2007-05-16 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Most the comments, and the opening letter, really miss the point by a mile.

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you rock!
(Anonymous)
2007-05-19 10:43 pm UTC (link)
What a frustrating debate that must have been for you! I was frustrated with this guy just reading it.
There's an article on Slate right now that seems relevant--how Americans' obsession with "positivity" is so damaging. That seems to be true here--the happy meat narrative is satisfying--it's pretty. Idyllic farms, grazing cows, listening to our desires which magically fall into line with the universe, rock spirits. The vegan message is harder to hear and see.
Thanks for putting it out there. It gave me lots of fuel to express my values, and I'm sure it did a lot of good for a lot of us vegans, and probably helped create new ones.

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-20 04:17 pm UTC (link)
flux of pink indians!!

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[info]_makegodscringe
2007-06-10 05:15 am UTC (link)
...i'm sorry, but that guy is a total tool.

shit, nope. i'm not actually sorry. XD

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Hello
(Anonymous)
2007-10-25 08:30 am UTC (link)
Hello!
How are you?

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(Reply from suspended user)

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